The Case Against Israel- revisited

Joshua disagrees with the conclusion of my Case Against Israel (http://orangesandolives.blogspot.com/2006/07/case-against-israel.html).
He mentions that the waves of Aliya to the Holy Land in the first half of last century were apolitical noting that orthodox Jews did not believe in the establishment of the State of Israel. This is true to an extent; religiously motivated immigration was basically just that, religious. Well into the forming years of Israel many orthodox Jews did not agree with establishing a Jewish state because of the many conflicts this would have with the religion and the status of the Jewish people.
However, the Zionist immigration was by and large politically motivated. The fact that the early Zionists struggled to get recognition for their cause for a national homeland in Palestine which culminated in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 is a clear indication of these intentions.
Of course, in a way Israel was not the only give-away of the Brits. Transjordan was another example. The Hashemites came all the way from Saudi Arabia to rule over a desert inhabited by Bedouins by virtue of a British decree. I would not say that HKJ is then a legally established political entity.
However, the development of both states holds little other resemblance. While Israel sought to create an exclusivist democracy, the Hashemites established a popular monarchy. Israel was established after displacing and dispossessing the majority of the native inhabitants of the land, while the Hashemites won the confidence of the Bedouins and ruled over them in peace. The remaining Palestinians of Israel have been placed under military rule for the first 8 years of the state. Only afterwards were they given some of their civil rights.
While I agree that such political and civil rights may not be available in other areas of the Middle East, I still argue that huge discrimination exists in Israel between Jews and non-Jews. Israel maintains a system by which Arabs are continuously oppressed and denied some of their basic rights. Huge inequalities exist between both societies- only some of these have been reported by the Or Commission Report of 2001. Fifty Eight years of Israel, and Israel still is not a country for all its citizens. It continues to identify itself as Jewish and defends this Jewishness regardless of the vagueness of the term and the extent to which this nature compromises the rights of the native Palestinians.
I don’t want to talk about the longest and most brutal military occupation since WWII.
I do not suggest that those who were born in Tel-Aviv should leave – or be “transferred” as is the common political term in Israel that refers to the displacement of Arabs. I believe that a person’s home is where he belongs. So if a Jew sees his home in Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv or even Ramallah, then let it be so. But this should apply to both sides of the conflict.
Palestinians don’t seek a war. We are sick of it. The truth of the matter is that there are people who lost their land and they want it. They would not care less what religion is their neighbour.
Think of it this way, only if we had a pluralistic society can we reject the extremism of both sides. Only then will they realise that they will have no purpose to serve in such a society, because an Islamic State would be just as rejected as a Jewish State.
We can’t build our battles on what God wrote here or there, we all know that all of these books were written/collected by humans. Besides, every God is biased towards His people.


Anonymous said...

Another idiot wanting a judenrein Middle East... I really hope the Palis will disappear as by now we know that this group of terrorists only wants to kill and cannot do anything constructive...

Self-explode to your raisins with your children and let the world live...

Palestina delenda esse!

You are the worst that nhumanity produces... Too many marriages with your cousins has produced idiots!

Anonymous said...

Unfortunatly the sins of the fathers maybe visited on their children, but to claim the Lebanese are inocent victims is just a plain lie. I doubt there are ten innocent civilians in Lebanon or Syria. You are judged by the company you keep. You can't pretend you don't know anything when you get caught, it didn't work for the Nazis and it won't work for these peices of garbage either. The more killed the better, the world is a better place without them. Maybe Isreal will finally wipe this trash off the face of the earth.

Ned said...

I wonder...
I wonder if I should just delete these stupid comments or leave them for people to see how the Zionists think...

Peggy said...

Oh, you should just leave the comments. People usually read blogs so they can be amazed by the things people say, albeit anonymously!

It is interesting and necessary to debate the past, but the present and the future are in a state of crisis. If the so-called leaders of our countries keep using the past to justify violence, the situation will never improve.

Deaths on all sides of the Middle Eastern conflict are unacceptable. The death of a Lebanese is as unacceptable as the death of an Israeli or a Palestinian.

All sides feel they are the victims and are only defending themselves. All sides distort history to make themselve look right. All sides resort to violence too quickly. All sides refuse to consider that the opponent may have a point.

Meanwhile the civilians suffer, starve and die.

Let's stop listening to these fools who call themselves leaders, whether political or religious, and demand peace.

Fritz said...

I am not convinced that Palestinians would automatically reject an Islamic state without Israel's existence as some sort of goad. Somalia is becoming a theocratic state with nary an Israeli in sight. I don't think the mullahs in Iran are likely to walk away from power if Israel disappeared. No -- the urge to create an Islamic state is deeply rooted in Islamic history. Don't blame that one on Israel. The Romans did Christianity a great favor by making sure it did not start with a legacy of a prophet/king.

Anonymous said...

I think you should leave the comments - they are so ridiculous and show zionism really is racist.
Understanding the past is essential - its what brought us here, it is how we can understand the situation, an oppurtunity to learn (though no one ever seems to). It is unfair and ignorant to allow the nature of Israels creation to be concealed and forgotten - this must be taken into account to allow justice and peace.
Yes both sides see themselves as victims, but Israel has never known the occupation and oppression Lebanese, and especially, Palestinians have.

Anonymous said...

Also, fritz you forget there is a large majority of Palestinian christians, and many Palestinian muslims who are not practising or would just simply not like to see an Islamic state in Palestine.
I think the most beautiful thing about Palestinian society is that it is a multiculture.

Anonymous said...

Arabs are the worst racists... They believe they are the chosen because their nomad pedophile thought he got a message from God... They are useless, cannot create anything of value and kill and pracxtice ethnic cleansing when they can...

joshua said...

You are right in some ways about the differences between Jordan and Israel, but apparently you forgot about Black September.

No matter; I agree with you that a pluralistic, secular society would be the best for all in the region.

But do you see a secular, pluralist society emerging in Palestine?

It's true that even though Palestinian-Israeli citizens (1.5 million of them) can hold office and vote, they are not full citizens in that they can't serve in the Army and are often discriminated against, as are minorities, sadly, in many parts of the world (talk to the Arabs nationals in France, say).

But would you agree that Israel still does pretty well by its Arab citizens compared to the treatment of Jews in Arab countries?

As for the Occupied Territories, it is to Israel's lasting shame that they failed to either give them back to Jordan/Egypt, set them free, or treat the people there as citizens. History will show this to be a grave mistake.

But when will Hamas/Hezbollah go the way of Sinn Fein?

PS - you have no proof that these bigots posting above are zionists; they could be american evangelical christians, for example.

Laurence said...

"can't serve in the Army"

Try: exempt from compulsory service.

KSM said...

Maybe, when this Lebanon thing is over, we'll finally get it:

Guerrillas like to hide behind civilians.

Muslim guerrillas take it a step further: "Civilians" are a weapon to them -- as much a part of the fight as the AK-47 or RPG they carry.

Those who have visited any Hezbollah installation in Lebanon over the years always remark on the fact that there are always families, women and children, in and around the place. "Secret" installations are usually hidden in plain site -- in houses or apartment buildings.

Seldom, if ever, has a guerrilla movement been able to so openly and exquisitely weave itself into the fabric of a society as Hezbollah has done in Lebanon. . . .

To Hezbollah -- high on the hatred of centuries -- this is total war, and the very term "civilian" -- except for its temporary value in gulling the West -- does not apply.